cseti11.htm

  PSI APPLICATIONS

from the "Comprehensive Briefing Document"

by CSETI and Dr. Greer

 INTERVIEW WITH SNOOPY 2 POLICE HELICOPTER PILOT

CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA - 27 DECEMBER 1977 INCIDENT

CODE: W - Witness (the pilot) I - Interviewer(s)

SIDE B, TAPE 2
 

W: It was on December 27th, approximately 5 minutes till 11 p.m.. We were flying out on the Independence Boulevard area. There was a call that came over the police radio at 9th and College. We weren't sure what the call was. We understood they were looking for an automobile so we headed that way. I was traveling a north northwesterly direction toward the 9th and College. As I was headed that way, I observed two objects. It was approximately 2,000 foot indicated altitude. I pointed to my partner and showed him the two objects. I thought at first it was two military helicopters headed towards Fort Bragg. It was like they were flying in formation and it appeared they had their landing light on. As we went under both objects, I observed that there was no rotating beacons no strobe light, no navigational lights or anything.

After going underneath them I swung back around - it was only a minute. They had the car they were looking for. So we turned around. I was going to go back around and check it out. Going back. I couldn't find the objects. I got to the Coliseum. I circled around the Coliseum and turned back to the northerly direction. As I did, I observed the two objects coming at me. I was doing approximately a hundred, a hundred and ten miles an hour at this particular time. So I pulled back on the cyclic and started climbing, losing my air speed. I was trying to get behind the one that was the closest to me. As both objects passed by-, I turned to the left and tried to circle behind one of the objects. One of the objects that was in front appeared to climb to about four thousand foot. The other object turned to an easterly direction. I was turning to a westerly direction so I immediately swung back to the right - to an easterly direction. As I did, I observed the object and I was within two hundred foot of it. It was a bright glow of light, it looked just about like the light that a 100 - 150 watt light bulb would put out, I observed the light. It glowed upward instead of outward. The shape of the top of the object appeared to be the shape of a parachute. It had the ribbed seams in it. It was about half the size of a parachute.

As I observed it, a ball of fire came from the front portion of the object and fell approximately ten foot that's all I could see. And then the object took off in an easterly direction. I started after the object. About that time, the control tower operator called me and told me he had a target south of me around South Park Shopping Center. I swung to the south and I observed the same object. We started toward the object and got within approximately a mile of it. The object disappeared. I immediately called the control tower operator back and asked him if he still had it on the screen. And he stated to me that it just dropped it off the screen.

I: Okay. and you saw no more lights:' That was the end of the....

W: that was the end of it.
 

I: Okay. Ooh, the total elapsed time - what do you feel - did you note your watches when you first saw it and then when it ended? Did you get the elapsed time from the initial sighting of the objects to when it last?

W: I would estimate that my second encounter with them after I came around behind the Coliseum and they were coming out of the north...I would say right about 11:00 o'clock. We have a digital clock on the instrument panel in the helicopter. And I looked at the clock after I lost both - or all three - objects. And it was five minutes after 11:00. So, I saw the total thing and it lasted less than four minutes.

I: Okay, four minutes, now, from the first encounter to the - when you first sighted the two objects - or the second time?

W: The second time. I would say it was a total of about seven minutes total from the time I first spotted them until I lost them.

I: Okay. Seven minutes. Okay. Four minutes on the second encounter when you picked them up again. Okay. Now, you mentioned three objects. Two objects you first saw and then coming back, did you see the two objects?

W: It would be the same two objects.

I: Okay. Did they seem to be connected?

W: No, they were not connected because one stayed about 1,800 to 2,000 foot indicated altitude. The other one appeared to climb to about 4,000 foot.

I: Okay.

W: And one appeared to go straight for as far as I seen him. Later on, while I was talking - I was talking to the control tower the whole time. I called the tower and asked him if he had any targets on the scope out there by the Coliseum; that I had two objects out there that didn't have any night navigation lights, rotating beacons or anything. He stated to me that he did have three targets over the Coliseum area. swung around and turned the landing light on them - from the helicopter. And he stated he had visual contact with them.

I: Okay, now, one of the targets is a Cessna going by.

W: That had already gone by. I saw the, I observed the Cessna going by.

I: You did observe the Cessna~
 
W: Yeah, I....
 
I: Okay. So after you turned your landing light so the tower could see you, okay, now did you have two or three objects in sight?
 
W: I had two objects. I didn't know anything about the third object.
 
I: Okay, you had two objects in sight. Now when the..the ball or piece fell down or went off, now did you have the two objects in sight when they, when one of them fell off?
 
W: I only had one. It was on the bunch on the end. Then I couldn't keep up trying to catch both of them. So I was trying to get one of them.

I: Okay, so two were in the area but you were trying to get one:, Okay, so you were watching one. So the ball came off of that one object then did the object rise?
 
W: No, it gave him a uh, easterly or northeasterly direction. I couldn't really say because I swung to the left and then I swung back to the right -

I: ...on the radar tape we've got what direction they basically pinpointed, but. Okay. Okay, when the object rose and went up to 41000 feet, did it rise up before it ejected the ball or did it go up and then eject the ball, then....okay.

W: The first object at 4,000 they were actually close together, I'd say within 4-500 foot.

I: Okay...

W: ...and the one furthest from me, which would have been in closer to town, he was the one that climbed to 4,000. And the other one that was closest to me was the one I was trying to swing around and get behind. He did not climb.

I: He did not climb:, Okay. But the other one that was closer to town did climb and then it moved off? Okay. And the one that was closest to you ejected the - the ball.

W: Ball of fire.
 

I: Okay. When it ejected the ball of fire, what happened to it?

W: It went off in an easterly direction.

I: It went into an easterly direction? Okay. It moved off?

[background voice]

I: That disappeared. It moved on in an easterly direction and the one that was flying - did you see that moving away?

W: No, I was more interested in the second object and I was going to try to identify it. I don't know where it went.

I: Okay, so you saw the one object flying and then your attention was looking at the object that - that was moving in an easterly direction:, Okay. Okay, the ball that shot off, now, did you observe how far it went down:, Where you able to tell? Did it go just a few feet or did it look like it went down towards the city?

W: Approximately 10 foot.

[background voices]

I: Okay, we're going to have you do a drawing. That's probably the next step. We need to do a few more things. We've got some questions to quickly go through and go back on what you've already said. We'll just try to pick up a few things. And then we need to have a drawing basically of what you saw at the closest point. And then also on a map we want to - I want to have you show me on a map about where you were going and maneuvering and where you saw the different objects. I would say this is going to be quite detailed because there's a whole lot to it.

W: There's not that much to draw, really. Well, most of what I actually seen was a light and a glimpse.

I: Okay. Let's go right into the drawing then. Let me have you, if you would. Let me see if I have a pencil.

1-2. You say' you came within 200 feet of it at one point?

W: Yes.
 

I-2: At that time did you - did you lose or gain any altitude?

W: I was gaining.

I-2: Gaining altitude. (unintelligible)

W: I was actually - he had went past and I was climbing prior to meeting him. I was only flying about 12 or 1,300 foot indicated and after I observed him coming toward me, they appeared to be about 1,800 foot indicated. And I started climbing. I was losing my air speed while I was climbing up.

I-2: Did you think this was coming directly towards you?

W: It was, yes. But, he went past me a little bit to my left. And as he did I was climbing and made a climbing left turn. At that time, he appeared to be making a left turn. And I couldn't get behind him so I swung it back to the right.

I-2: The time it ejected the ball or whatever, did you have an orientation on whether or not he made a motion when he shot something out. Did the object go this way and then the object then went this way, or he didn't change any position of his own'! Did the ball just fall off or was it shot out......

W: No, it didn't act exactly like it recoiled. It came out from under it. It just fell - almost be like you would drop something out.

I: Did it go straight or did it flutter:,

W: It went straight.

I: But the light - did it stay solid? It didn't disintegrate or anything?  When that ball dropped off, it went straight down. Did that light continue moving on?

W:I'll tell you what it really reminds you of..

I: Okay.

W:... is when you plug into an outlet and the fire flies from it.  That's what it actually reminded me of if you'd multiply that by uh 500 times.

I-2: You said it was about like the light from a 100 watt light bulb. What apparent size did it appear to be?

W: It was a glow of light. When I said a 100 watt light bulb I was referring to about the size of the glow that a 100 watt light bulb would put out.

I: Okay, let's, let's go in before the sketch then. Here's an apparent size chart. Okay. What we're going to do here is get an idea so we can visually feel just how big it was. Like to have you to hold the chart at arm's length and try to visualize that if you had that chart that night and could hold it up at the nearest point, what bright circle there would completely surround the glow so that so you couldn't...

W: Are you talking about the light or the whole thing:,

I: Well, at this point I guess the light, the light itself, or is it bigger than that. Maybe. You know, most encounters, you're not within 200 feet, so the whole light may be bigger than what you see here. In other words. ..

W: That would really....

I: Do you see what I'm talking about? This is a little bit hard to explain, let's see.

W: I,  I understand exactly what you're trying to say. It's been over a week and it's kinda...

I: Well, this is just to give us an idea of how big the light.......was; we'll do the drawing now.
 

END OF TAPE
 
 

 
Actual recording of the above incident as prepared by Charlotte Tower.

Incident Date: 28 December 1977

CODE: (A) AirTraffic Controller(s) P-Pilot(s)
 

This re-recording is being prepared by Charlotte Tower. The subject concerns an aircraft incident involving a Charlotte, North Carolina police helicopter, call sign Snoopy 2, on December 21, 1977, at approximately 03:54 Greenwich Mean Time. All Charlotte approach control positions in operation are combined and recorded at the local control division operations. This re-recording is from 03:53 GMT to 04:20 CMT. I hereby certify that the following is a true re-recording of the original recorded transmissions pertaining to the subject incident. My name is Morgan P. Morris. I am Evaluations and

Proficiency Development Specialist at Charlotte Tower.

Begin real-time event re-recording:

A: Yes.
 

P: Charlotte Tower Snoopy 2.

A: Snoopy 2. yes, Snoopy 2.

P: Snoopy 2, we've got two objects out here, we don't know what they are. Have you got them on your trace out over the Coliseum area:,

A: Two objects over the Coliseum:, Yeah, I do have something. I got a Cessna out there eastbound. I don't know what the other one is.

P: Negative. We're got two of them out here and they keep circling. They don't have any- navigation lights on them at all.

A: Okay. I see what you're talking about. You want to head over that way and check it out?

P: We're at it now but I can't get close to it.

A: . Cessna , did you pass over anything when you went the Coliseum?

CP.: 784. We didn't notice it.
 
A: Okay. Snoopy 2_ can you guesstimate the altitude?

P: I got one that looks to be about 4.000 directly under me at this time. Directly over me, excuse me.

A: Okay. Tell 1181 to taxi into position Where's that aircraft going? Say it again.

A2: Cessna 6 RP is taxiing the lower ramp.

A: Okay, taxi to the ramp. Snoopy 2. Tell 1181 runway 36 cleared for takeoff after the . turn right at Zero Two five. Maintain Two Two Zero.

P2: Two Two Zero north 1181.

FAA Tower

A: Snoopy 2, if you would turn towards the tower and show me your lights so 1 can look over that way with glasses.

P: Roger. We got - 1 don't know where they got to now. There was two of them. They were low and then they went to about 4,000 foot and started circling. There was two of them. No navigation lights at all on them. Just one big bright light.

A: Okay, Snoopy, 1 got ya now.

P: Okay. Roger.

A: Tell 1181 that our contact leaving 3,000, turn left at Two Six Zero        . Or Two Six Zero           Uh, Three Two Sixty at the comdor after 1181.

A: Cessna 7X4 Fox Trot, you're 15 east of Charlotte               . Have a good day.

CP: 784. Thank you very much. Sure has been a good evening.

A: Thank you, you're at 7, you're 20 south of                     [Lots of background roar - no voices

A: Charlotte 550, 73. Try to maintain 6.000.

P: 73. Four for six.
 

A: 1181 contact Atlanta Center point IS. Good night.

P: 25, 15, 1181. Good night.

A: 150 Whiskey contact Atlanta center on 133 point 15. Good night.

A: 550 73, advise when your level is 6.
 

P: 73. Roger, wilco.

P: Charlotte Tower - 724
 

A: Yes, sir. 72.
 

P: You got anything up there on your scope around the towers out north of' Fayette'!

P2: Tower approach is at 201

A: 201. 10.000. Channel Three Zero One Niner Two Four Zero vector, turn into runway 5 and maintain 6.000.

P2: Okay Roger.        . We'll fly with all the rest.

A: Snoopy 2, no, sir, I'm not seeing the target right now.

P: Roger. 72. We've got something out here flying around and 1 don't believe in flying saucers but it ain't an aircraft. 1 don't know what it is.

A: It sounds like a close encounter of the second kind.
 

P: [laughs} Yeah.

A: Star Wars.

P: 50. You've got us going right over those two towers together. It's a bright light. I don't know what it is. We're gonna head out that way and see if we can't get up to it.

A: Okay. Better look out. Hey, did you turn - do you have your landing light on?

P: No. We've got our eyebrow lights on.

A: Cut them on: They may be what he's seeing. He, uh, he's in direct line if he is.

P: Yeah, that's what it was out there around the towers. We got two other objects though over the city awhile ago. One was about 4,000 the other was about 18 hundred.

A: Okay. That was a, that one northeast is a jet in-bound and uh, I'm painting a light target just south of your position now, Snoopy.

P: We'll swing around there and see what we'll see.

P: I don't know what it was. One of them was down about 18 hundred. Looked like part of it burned off and the tail and the light went dim on it.

A: 550 73. What's your altitude leaving?

P2: Down from 30 to 5,100.
 

A: Okay, 550  73, contact approach control. One One  Niner point Four, your radar service is terminated 30 west of Charlotte.
 

P2: Okay. Good night, Joe.

A: Good night.

P: 72. You still got that target south of us?

A: Ah. No. It's gone.

P: We were watching it and all of a sudden the light went out.

A: What's going on down there:,

P: I'11 be darned if I know. I'd like to find out myself.

[background roar - no voices]

P2: 177 descending to 6,000.

A:   177             coming in Charlotte on channel Three Zero One Niner. Flying One One Zero on the traffic pattern    . And they said to maintain 4,000.

P2: Okay at 4,000.

A: 201, do you have the airport in sight?

P3: Yeah, we sure do.
 

A: Okay, you're cleared for visual approach. Left turn into runway 5.

P3: Tower, how far out is Southern?
 
A: Let's see, he's 20 west.
 
P3: Okay, well, we we've got a co-pilot there that's kind of new and he wants to stretch it out a little bit.

A: Okay, 1'll keep him behind you.

P3: Good.
 

A: Southern 177, air speed of , reduce to 200 knots.

P4: 177. Roger.

A: 2-0, 177.
 

END

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